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Socoder -> Off Topic -> Uhoh : The political thread |
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| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 04:53 | |
Jayenkai
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Given today's general inability to avoid anything even slightly political, I figured I should start a political thread. I don't usually like these, because given 2 minutes they turn into intensely insane flamewars, but today's an important day, so I can make an exception. ... The lock button's on standby! -=-=- ''Load, Next List!'' 
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| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 06:14 | |
Stealth
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I'd pick McCain just because I dislike a few of Obama's policies. Raising Taxes for Rich People I think this is unfair. The top %20 of rich people already pay %80 of all taxes. What I think is happening here is that the poor people are using political power to abuse rich people. The rich people already pay massive amounts of tax, raising it more is entirely unfair. Everybody should pay proportionate taxes depending on how much you make. It's the only "fair" way to do things. Socialized Health Care This is a good concept, but impossible to execute successfully. If America already doesn't have the money to pay for heath care, then how does pooling all our money together and giving health care to everybody help? It doesn't. What we are going to see are higher taxes and a degrade of our health care system. I do not want to have to ask the government to go to the doctor. That is giving too much power to the government. Higher Taxes = Less Jobs Raising the taxes does no good to the economy. Sure we can make sure everybody has healthcare, but at the cost of millions of jobs? No way. Big companies do not pay higher taxes. They just pass the tax on down to the consumer. When the government raises taxes for big business, we the people end up paying it. And if the business can't raise prices, they will just cut jobs and make people work even harder. Degrading our standard of living more. Illogical concept. Obama is pretty far ahead though and I see him winning. So we will see how it goes. I'm just not enthusiastic about it thus far. -=-=- Quit posting and try Google.
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| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 06:56 | |
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Jayenkai
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I dunno, I think that Health Care wise, you're in a good position to give it a try. Health Care for all is a good system to try when everyone's already paying for it. Over here, they're contemplating this Top-Up type system, whereby the NHS is already free, but if you pay, you get "Premium" NHS.. Think of it like XBox Live ripping you off by charging you to play games online, when you've been playing PC games online (+ Wii/PS2/PS3/Dreamcast/DS) for free for years. You're trying to do things the other way around, so.. technically it'll be a much easier transition. .. I think..!? -=-=- ''Load, Next List!''
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| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 09:31 | |
Phoenix
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I'm not an American, but I have can have thoughts on the matter. Stealth  Raising Taxes for Rich People To make the changes Obama wants he needs more money, so someone needs to pay more taxes. Should the poor pay higher taxes? What is fair, really? It might not be fully fair in the sense that some get to pay more than others, but should a dog work as much as a horse? Would you rather take away a plasma TV from a rich person or food from a poor? Stealth I do not want to have to ask the government to go to the doctor. That is giving too much power to the government.Ask the government? Either I'm not up to date with the politics or just confused. Like Jay said, people are already paying for health care. If you're into the whole being fair idea, then socialized health care is excellent. Today, some can afford it and some can't. Very fair. Higher Taxes = Less JobsMy country has one of the world's highest taxes and also one of the world's smallest unemployment rate. Not sure how well this relates to America but I find it hard to believe that millions of jobs will be lost. If I was a presidential candidate I wouldn't even consider an "illogical concept". |
| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 09:39 | |
HoboBen
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Course, they could lower taxes for *everyone* if there was less military spending... Unfortunately Obama is pretty keen on increasing it still further! Though I reckon he's preferable to the-other-guy as McCain is a complete homophobe and a bit of a Luddite. And Obama's better looking.  When are the results announced, btw? -=-=- blog | work | code | more code |
| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 10:04 | |
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Jayenkai
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It'll probably be a late night result like we have, so.. .. I dunno wtf time that'd be, over here! (And that's assuming they don't do another "Florida is wrong! Me want to recount again, and again, and again" thing..) -=-=- ''Load, Next List!''
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| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 10:21 | |
Eikon
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I am voting for McCain as a vote against Obama. I am a Christian, and I don't like that Obama was a member of the Trinity Baptist Church for twenty years. The Reverend there, Jeremiah Wright, is a follower of black liberation theology. You may remember such choice quotes of his as "God damn America", and the "US KKK of A". Not only did Obama call this man his mentor, he had his children baptized, and his wedding sanctioned by him. He wrote a book based on one of his speeches, 'The Audacity of Hope'. Yet when Wright's extremist views were revealed, Obama claimed he had no idea of his friend's radical leanings. I can't trust a man who would lie about his faith. As I mentioned, Jeremiah Wright believes in black liberation theology, see this video for a primer: www.eyeblast.tv/Public/Video.aspx?RsrcID=2036 this is a theology that teaches: James Cone, founder: "Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community. Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love."Something makes me think that if McCain was a member of a church whose preacher held these views against blacks, the media would've torn him limb from limb. Obama has yet to be a member of a Christian church as far as I'm concerned, and I cannot support someone whose mentor has separatist and racist views.
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| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 10:51 | |
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Nolan |
Barack Obama. It strikes me as odd that you make Obama's church such an issue. Palin's church seems like a cult to me -- one of those tongues-speaking, 'filled with the holy spirit' places. You base your vote on Christianity, and yet I hear nothing about the character of the two candidates. Obama has been married to one woman with a happy family, while McCain is on his second wife and has had multiple extramarital affairs. Surely one of those reflect Christian standards more than the other? Regardless, I am not a Christian and do not base my political views on my religious views. To be quite honest, I'm tired of the 'religious right' and their agendas. Socialized healthcare, if done correctly, seems fantastic. Americans already pay more than almost anyone else in the world for healthcare, so I can't imagine the funding being a real problem. Republican economics simply aren't the solution for an economic depression. We can't afford another Herbert Hoover. There are so many more issues I could hit on (the war in Iraq, the environment, lower taxes for those who need them, etc), but I won't, because I'm not going to change anyone's opinion. Put simply, I hope Obama wins. -=-=- nolandc.com
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| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 10:54 | |
flying_cucco
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Q: Obama is ahead in the polls, but do people say they will vote for him to not appear racist? On an unrelated note, I work for the NHS. I thought most MEDCs have universal health care, and the US is in the minority. And they spend more per capita. Yay socialism and all that. |
| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 10:59 | |
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Eikon
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It strikes me as odd that you make Obama's church such an issue. Palin's church seems like a cult to me -- one of those tongues-speaking, 'filled with the holy spirit' places. You base your vote on Christianity, and yet I hear nothing about the character of the two candidates. Obama has been married to one woman with a happy family, while McCain is on his second wife and has had multiple extramarital affairs. Surely one of those reflect Christian standards more than the other? Barack has spoken about his own racist views towards whites in his books, you should read them. I'm not so much voting based on religion, I'm voting based on the fact that Obama's self described mentor is for the destruction of the white race. I don't happen to agree with that, you may, and you're free to do so.
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| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 11:03 | |
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mole |
I'm not sure where this 'higher taxes = less jobs' comes from. True, there is the possibility of the inference of (new) tax on products falling mainly upon the consumer. However it would be wrong to state that as a general statement; it is only true for products with a price inelastic demand. Why will millions of jobs be lost if a national health service is implemented? Taxes are very important to an economy. How do you think public services are paid for? How can negative externalities of production be succumbed?
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| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 11:08 | |
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Eikon
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Q: Obama is ahead in the polls, but do people say they will vote for him to not appear racist? This is quite often the case, and is known as the Bradley effect. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_effect this is why Obama continued to campaign in states where he appeared to hold a solid lead. Internally the campaign knows that they must subtract between 5/10% of their support in the polls to counter balance the Bradley effect. Exit polling is also skewed towards Democrats, because Republicans are less likely to admit to pollsters that they just voted for McCain. The demented American media has led people to believe that a vote for McCain is a racist vote. Voting for Barack has been cast as a feel good thing, a way for whites to prove they have moved on from the past.
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| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 13:54 | |
Afr0
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I am voting for McCain as a vote against Obama. I am a Christian, and I don't like that Obama was a member of the Trinity Baptist Church for twenty years. The Reverend there, Jeremiah Wright, is a follower of black liberation theology. So you're voting against Obama because he happens to be in the same church as a reverend with extremist views? Wow. Just wow. I don't suppose I could get you to vote on Obama by claiming that McCain is my third half-sister's great-grandmother's fifth nephew on my stepmom's side of the family and then exclaiming 'ALL WHITES CAN GO FOOK THEMSELVES!!!!11'? Oh and also: The Promised Land Edit: Now that I'm at it - like Hobo, I think Obama has more charisma than any president I've seen in a long while. Possibly Clinton before the marriage scandal. He's also a geniounly caring person. Newspapers all over Norway has been repeating a story for a while about some US woman who was traveling from Norway back to the US and got charged 100 USD extra for overweight or some shit. And she didn't have those money available right there and then, and Barrack was right behind her in the queue. This was before he was known in any way, and he paid her bill because he pitied her. I actually saw an interview with her on the telly today, and she was a complete die-hard fan of him, understandably. What the US needs the most right now more than anything is a person who will be respected, trusted and liked internationally, and Barrack is that guy. -=-=- Afr0 Games Project Dollhouse on Github - Please fork!
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| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 14:04 | |
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Eikon
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So you're voting against Obama because he happens to be in the same church as a reverend with extremist views? Wow. Just wow. I never said that it was because he simply happened to be a member of this church, though the fact that he stayed there for twenty years is very troubling. I laid out quite clearly that the association runs much deeper than that. This is a man who Obama has described as a father figure in his life, do you happen to know what the word "mentor" means? When someone is close friends with an extremist such as this, and has spoken about similar views himself in his own writings, this is not an association thrice removed, as much as you may want to make it so. tinyurl.com/66ufbv
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| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 14:46 | |
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Afr0
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Quotes from 'A More Perfect Union'; '...we've heard my former pastor...use incendiary language to express views that have the potential not only to widen the racial divide, but views that denigrate both the greatness and the goodness of our nation; that rightly offend white and black alike. I have already condemned, in unequivocal terms, the statements of Reverend Wright that have caused such controversy. For some, nagging questions remain. Did I know him to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely — just as I'm sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed. But the remarks that have caused this recent firestorm weren't simply controversial. They weren't simply a religious leader's effort to speak out against perceived injustice. Instead, they expressed a profoundly distorted view of this country — a view that sees white racism as endemic, and that elevates what is wrong with America above all that we know is right with America...' 'I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother — a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe. These people are a part of me. And they are a part of America, this country that I love.' 'The profound mistake of Reverend Wright's sermons is not that he spoke about racism in our society. It's that he spoke as if our society was static; as if no progress has been made; as if this country — a country that has made it possible for one of his own members to run for the highest office in the land and build a coalition of white and black; Latino and Asian, rich and poor, young and old — is still irrevocably bound to a tragic past.' 'By itself, that single moment of recognition between that young white girl and that old black man is not enough. It is not enough to give health care to the sick, or jobs to the jobless, or education to our children. But it is where we start. It is where our union grows stronger. And as so many generations have come to realize over the course of the two-hundred and twenty one years since a band of patriots signed that document in Philadelphia, that is where the perfection begins.' -=-=- Afr0 Games Project Dollhouse on Github - Please fork!
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| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 14:52 | |
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Jayenkai
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Alright, a political thread turned religious. whoop de doo... I can't (off the top of my head) remember any previous presidents going crazy-crazy with religion, so I think it's safe to assume that no matter what his personal thought are, he won't be acting on 'em. It's not expected, and it certainly wouldn't be tolerated.. I'm pretty sure that's not the "Change" he's after!! Political Topic day is nearly over, so the topic will be locked in about 7 or 8 hours, give or take, depending on whether I'm still awake, and whether any further chaos continues.. Afro/Eikon, cease the flamewar... -=-=- ''Load, Next List!''
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| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 14:52 | |
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Eikon
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And I'd just like to clarify that the reason I am focusing on this issue is because the candidates are virtually the same on other major issues. They are both for continued war in the middle east, Obama just wants to move focus from Iraq to Pakistan and Afghanistan. They are both for continued lax enforcement of illegal immigration laws. They both support warrant-less spying on the American people. They are both for cap-and-trade regulation of green house emissions. Both support the removal of restrictions on stem cell research. Where they mainly differ is on the issues of gun control and abortion, and I happen to agree with McCain on both of those. The differences in their health care and tax plans are minutiae compared to the matters on which they agree.'I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother — a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe. Thanks for proving my point for me. When given the chance, Obama refuses to distance himself from the extreme views of rev. Wright. And he then throws his white grandmother under the bus as a closet racist in the process, how quaint.
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| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 15:07 | |
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Eikon
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Afro/Eikon, cease the flamewar... I thought we were being pretty civil, but alright, that's all from me.
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| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 15:19 | |
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Jayenkai
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I don't know if "Closet" racist is the right word.. Most grandparents are stupidly racist. I know that my Nan's always used loads of racist expressions, and had really insane views. It's something that me and my sister's noticed years ago, but.. never really felt like we should point it out! After all, it's Nan! That's how Nan's are. But recently we had a black family move next door, and.. well, my Mum cottoned on to Nan's extreme racism pretty quickly!! It's not a racism thing, it's just a different era. Back then, those things weren't classed as being "THAT" offensive.. Just look at TV from 30 years ago, and you'll see the same thing. Racist Nan's are like what the world would be without Political Correctness! -=-=- ''Load, Next List!''
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| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 17:32 | |
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Stealth
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Phoenix To make the changes Obama wants he needs more money, so someone needs to pay more taxes. Should the poor pay higher taxes? What is fair, really? It might not be fully fair in the sense that some get to pay more than others, but should a dog work as much as a horse? Would you rather take away a plasma TV from a rich person or food from a poor?The point I am making is that the rich already have a enormous tax burden. Everybody should get an equal tax raise, or a certain percentage of their paycheck withheld. That way everybody pays the same rate. Raising taxes just for rich people is not fair at all. Phoenix Ask the government? Either I'm not up to date with the politics or just confused. Like Jay said, people are already paying for health care. If you're into the whole being fair idea, then socialized health care is excellent. Today, some can afford it and some can't. Very fair.You wouldn't directly ask the government. But the government would have to decide who gets money and who doesn't. It wouldn't be able to afford to give money to everybody. Socialized health care simply gives too much power to the government. The more important part is that this was not the principals America was founded with. Socialism is not freedom. Phoenix My country has one of the world's highest taxes and also one of the world's smallest unemployment rate. Not sure how well this relates to America but I find it hard to believe that millions of jobs will be lost. If I was a presidential candidate I wouldn't even consider an "illogical concept".Millions of jobs was a bit exaggerated. But companies have to stay competitive. So there are a few options when companies are taxed more. They can either cut their profits (which they hate doing), or raise the price of their product (which makes them less competitive), or fire people and demand more out of those who still work at the company. My point is, raising taxes for companies is pointless because companies do not pay taxes, consumers do. Higher taxes means that products will cost more or jobs will be eliminated. Both of those are bad. -=-=- Quit posting and try Google.
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| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 17:47 | |
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Stealth
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Although on a side note, I found a fairly funny website depicting Palin as president. It's bias, but you've got to admit it's humorous. Everybody is trying not to be rasist and sexist during this election. But Palin as President? Let's make fun of the fact that she is a woman and is incapable of being President! ...it's still discrimination either way. Its just become "cool" to bash Palin because the media said so. -=-=- Quit posting and try Google.
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| Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 20:26 | |
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Stealth
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A lot of the the things on that site have to do with women (mainly being a mother). Saying she isn't fit to run a country because she has kids is a rediculous claim. Many other presidents have had kids. The sexism isn't directly said, but it's definatly implied. I beleive Palin would be a better president than Biden anyday. The media has turned Palin in to a joke unfortunatly. I guess it shows how easily manipulated people are. You also seem to think that posting that link is funny. I don't know when insulting people became funny, but last time I checked it was called bullying. -=-=- Quit posting and try Google.
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